Sig 229

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    Devereaux
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    Sig 229

    Post by Devereaux on Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:34 pm

    Boy, every time I take my 229 to the range I like it more.

    As (some of) you may recollect, I have an old 229, that came in .40 but had an extra barrel in .357 Sig. The weapon is old enough it doesn't have rails under the dust cover. It originally had slab sided grips, the old trigger bar spring, and the old style long hammer strut and spring.

    I have replaced the trigger bar spring with the newer style, the hammer strut and spring with the newer version, the bed-post-like grips with E2's, and installed an SRT trigger. It STILL shoots great groups, but now you can shoot nicely rapidly. I can stay in or closely next to the 5X on a standard Police Target (silhouette). That SRT trigger allows you to shoot really, really fast 2-shot strings, and even pound out a bunch of rounds in brief time. I can see why the government carries it.

    On second thought, I can't figure out why the feds carry this weapon as it appears way too good for a government choice. I would have expected an M&P .40.
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    Re: Sig 229

    Post by Tennessee Jed on Wed Jul 16, 2014 8:20 pm

    I spent some time for a while with a 226 and thought it was one of the best shooting semi-autos I'd ever fired.

    Do you normally shoot 40 or 357 Sig out of your 229?
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    Re: Sig 229

    Post by Devereaux on Wed Jul 16, 2014 8:38 pm

    Well, I have been lazy and not reloaded for some time, so I don't have any .40 to practice with. Meanwhile I bought a couple K of frangible .357 Sig, so I am shooting that.

    I am not a big fan of .40, but do find it easy to reload. I am slowly collecting cases of .357 Sig to reload. I hear a lot of terrible stories about reloading that cartridge, but looking at the case, I just don't see why. Yes, it's a bottle-neck, but that is hardly a reason to get one's shorts all atwist. Just lube the cases and the Dillon should make them easily enough.

    But ONE OF THESE DAYS ... I will finally get my butt in gear and start reloading. Probably go crazy when I do start. I have .38 mouse rounds to make, .45 Colt to try out with Trail Boss, .45 ACP to load, as I need to run my 227 a while, 5.56 to make (I am trying to get rid of the junk that I have a thousand of, so I can reload it with decent loads), and, of course, 300BLK. Soon as Corn reports that his cases have done well.

    Back to the 229. I believe the Air Marshals carry this round (frangible). It shoots quite well. Nice muzzle flash too. I have about 1K of Lawman loads but haven't fired any of those - yet. I don't own ANY .40 commercial ammo. Never bought any. I have about 2K cases and a bunch of 180gr plated bullets. I usually load about 1k rounds at a time, then shoot that up.

    But the 229 sits in the night stand with Lawman loads in the mag. And if you haven't shot one, you owe it to yourself to go out and shoot one. It's worth having. (But I like the 226 also - have 2.)
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    Re: Sig 229

    Post by Cornmastah on Thu Jul 17, 2014 2:29 pm

    Devereaux wrote:... and, of course, 300BLK. Soon as Corn reports that his cases have done well.

    Yeah, sorry about that. I was going to go shooting on Monday (my day off), but my wife and one of my daughters got strep throat so I had to stay home. I am going to try to shoot either this weekend or early next week.
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    Re: Sig 229

    Post by Charlie Foxtrot on Thu Jul 17, 2014 2:34 pm

    I'm looking at a "Heritage" 9mm pistol for the Clan armory. There'll be no poly pistols with unknown lifetimes: in metal I trust.

    Considering the Browning Hi-Power, CZ 75, and HK UPS. I guess I'll have to add SIG P226.

    Drat all those new Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulators.

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    Re: Sig 229

    Post by Cornmastah on Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:41 pm

    Charlie Foxtrot wrote:I'm looking at a "Heritage" 9mm pistol for the Clan armory. There'll be no poly pistols with unknown lifetimes: in metal I trust.

    Considering the Browning Hi-Power, CZ 75, and HK UPS. I guess I'll have to add SIG P226.

    I have a CZ 75 SP-01, it shoots great and hasn't given me any problems... but oh man the mags are expensive (at least the last time I checked).
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    Re: Sig 229

    Post by Charlie Foxtrot on Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:14 pm

    Thanx Corn.

    Average Joe has me drooling over a CZ 75 Shadow.
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    Re: Sig 229

    Post by Charlie Foxtrot on Sat Jul 19, 2014 3:29 pm

    North Carolina SHP Chooses SIG SAUER

    Looks like the next time Doc Wesson gets pulled over for unsafe speed, Smokey da Bear might well be wearing a SIG P226 in .357SIG.
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    Re: Sig 229

    Post by Devereaux on Sat Jul 19, 2014 9:56 pm

    CF - ?Just what are you looking for. I have all your choices (I assume you meant HK USP - .45); ?what you want to know.
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    Re: Sig 229

    Post by Charlie Foxtrot on Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:55 pm

    Dev, someday soon I want to get a full sized, all metal 9mm heritage pistol. Right now, I'm just putting together a list of possibles. Liked your P229 review, so the P226 went on the list. My Glocks are getting old - and a precious 17 round mag recently split - the plastic simply cracked. Makes me wonder.

    The house is on the market - so I'll be in a free state soon. I'll start looking then.
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    Re: Sig 229

    Post by Devereaux on Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:45 pm

    Let me say that I have become a big fan of Sig lately. I am still a 1911 guy, but I actually SHOOT a Sig a lot more.

    I have several. I have a 226 in 9, all tricked out. Comes complete with E2's, SRT, racer tape on the top of the slide and on the front edge of the butt, rear sight reversed and the notch widened. Shoots like a dream. But then, it's a German 226, and I have the original sear, so the gun is a beaut to begin with. Since I got the E2's I also had to upgrade the trigger bar spring to the new version - which also apparently breaks a whole lot less.

    I have another 226 in .40 - with the second barrel in .357 Sig (?think you see a pattern there). It has E2's but has a DAK trigger. It is interesting, but doesn't get shot much. I think it's the trigger. I can fully understand the trigger as a cop gun, but I just like the SA/DA versions.

    I have a 227. It came with E2's but I installed an SRT. Looking at comments on line, it seems the kit for SRT is universal and fits all classic line Sigs. The new version, which is listed for the 227, apparently not only fits the other guns but is somewhat better because of a longer disconnect safety. The 227 is a classic line gun. It handles like a big 226. It fires .45 ACP, so you will cycle slower, but otherwise, it is great to shoot. So far it has not been finicky about ammo like my H&K USP. I would love to find some old blade sights for this, so I can get rid of the dots on the rear sight; modern Sigs come with this weird rear sight that has white dots in the rear and these overhangs to the front - so you can't effectively reverse them. A wider notch would also help. I find it great on the 226, and I have a 10-8 on my Shield that has a rear of 0.156 which is really nice too (don't want to introduce combat tupperware; just talking about the sights).

    Indeed, speaking as a defensive gun set-up, I would suggest that everyone find a way to widen the rear notch. It allows you to get a quicker sight picture. I would also cover/paint over the white dots on the rear. When you do, you find you can pick up the front sight WAY faster, so you have an easier shot alignment to accomplish.
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    Re: Sig 229

    Post by Devereaux on Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:58 pm

    I have a CZ 75. It is my only CZ and is in 9mm. Corn may want to jump in with some of his experience.

    I have long kept it in the night stand, but fired it only rarely. Took it out to the range last month and shot about 50 rounds through it. It worked as advertised. Consistent, reliable, nicely put together.

    It has inside rails, so it's a little different. CZ has this weird take-down system. I still can't remember just what you do, but it's something akin to the Glock in that you have to have the slide back some (I think - been a while since I broke it down). If you take that caveat, it's a great weapon. It feels good in your hand, and the trigger pull is acceptable. It has a decocking feature; when you apply the safety, it decocks the weapon. I think that is nice for nightstand duty, but overall don't care for it a huge amount. On a Sig you get to choose whether you are decocking or not (but then, there is no safety on the Sigs).

    The trigger is no 1911, but it is acceptable for a fighting gun. You don't get the shakes pulling it. The overall size is about right, too. Kind of a Commander length gun. Mine is 9; don't know if it comes in another calibre.
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    Re: Sig 229

    Post by Devereaux on Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:09 pm

    My Browning Hi-Power is ancient. I bought it back when I was in college. At the time I thought it was neat, because it has this nifty way to take-down. You locked the safety into a second notch further up the slide, then pushed out the slide stop pin - and the slide would come off the front when you released the safety! The recoil spring is captured, so it was one of the first captured spring guns I saw. It may well be the FIRST captured recoil spring gun.

    Old Brownings had a huge tendency for the bluing to wear off the backstraps. Mine is about the colour of my Ruger 3-screw - yet another gun where the bluing wore off the backstrap. I have both the original wooden grips and some later rubber ones. Not sure that the rubber ones are all that much better.

    At the time, this was a break-through gun. It had a double stack magazine, so it carried 13 rounds of 9mm. The safety is kind of a joke; you couldn't really work it in a combat situation with one hand don't believe. I never carried it except to hunt rats, and then it was cocked and ready, but I was in the dump looking actively for the little buggers.

    Some of the WWII ones have these ladder rear sights that go to 600 or 800 yds. I wouldn't consider shooting it at that distance, but I suppose one should never suppress optimism in combat. And you could always get lucky.

    The gun also has no front bushing, another innovation from the 1911. The barrel/recoil spring are captured in the slide, and to take them out, you remove the spring then the barrel out the back.

    Like I said, mine was bought back about '66 for some overwhelming price like $89. You will not find them for that kind of money, but I don't think they are particularly expensive nowadays.

    Novak used to modify the slide to shoot .40, but somewhere I recollect hearing there were slide cracking issues with the .40's. No facts, or data to point you to.
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    Re: Sig 229

    Post by Cornmastah on Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:09 pm

    One thing that always throws me off when I shoot the CZ, is that the slide is narrow. Significantly more narrow (or at least it feels that way to me) than all of my striker fired 9's. When racking the slide, it just feels skinny compared to the others--like less to hold on to.

    Oddly though, one of my favorite 9mm's to shoot is my Caracal. It is a smooth shooting gun with a good trigger. I like the ergonomics of the grip and I like how high your hand is in relation to the bore. Recoil is minimal. I shoot it well and would consider carrying it as my primary if there was not a recall on it.

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    Re: Sig 229

    Post by Otis2 on Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:33 pm

    Good evening, Dev.  Finally made my way here and sorry I'm late to the party on this thread.  

    There is a fine option on Gunbroker right now that will convert your P229 to 9mm.  This guy bought a bunch of P228's, I believe from NJSP.  He agreed he would not sell the entire firearm or the frame, hence the offering on Gunbroker.  I've purchased one of these myself for my P229 40 and it works very well.  The slide has some holster wear, but the parts are in fine mechanical condition, just very dirty.  Clean and lube, you are set to go!  It comes with the locking insert, which you will need to use.  Remove the locking insert from your P229 and install the locking insert that comes with the kit, install the slide, using the 9mm barrel and the recoil spring that comes with the kit and you can use your P229 40 mags or your P226 9mm mags.  Great for training and saving money at the range while practicing.  This kit is also available on ebay.  I see no real reason to get into a bidding war, if the pricing gets out of control, another will be listed as soon as one sells on either auction site.

    http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=449198412

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nice-Sig-Sauer-P228-229-9mm-Complete-Parts-Kit-Slide-Assembly-Barrel-ETC-/301364354877?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item462ab71f3d

    Regarding reloading for the 357 SIG, Montana Gold makes a FMJ and JHP bullet that works very well in 357 SIG and is designed specifically for the round.  The cylinder of the body is a bit longer giving you a bit more area to crimp to, making for a more secure bullet, less likely to suffer set back.  A Lee factory crimp die can help the situation, as well.

    http://montanagoldbullet.com/index.php/357sig-125gr-jhp-86.html

    http://montanagoldbullet.com/index.php/357sig-125gr-fmj.html
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    Re: Sig 229

    Post by Devereaux on Thu Oct 23, 2014 11:32 pm

    Thanks for the heads up!

    I wonder why you need a new locking insert but not a take-down lever. But I have to admit I am not totally familiar with all the movement within the frame of a Sig. I have taken down my various Sigs to insert the SRT triggers, so have had to take out the locking inserts. I always love the fact the trigger pin is directional, but the indication is a bit subtle, and it doesn't necessarily stay put so you have to pay attention.

    I have honestly not paid much attention to the P228. I understand it is out as the M11, but that is out in .357 Sig also, not just 9mm I believe, so that would make it a 229. Why all this difference is a bit beyond me. It would have been a lot simpler to be like the 226 and just offer it in the different calibres. You can get 226's in both 9mm and .40/.357 Sig.

    ?So have you done much reloading of the .357 Sig. I am collecting cases, but have not yet given it a whirl in the press. I am presuming you have to lube the cases because of the bottleneck. ?Any sage advise. Somewhere I heard someone suggest the initial resize be done with a .40 die. Not sure if you get shoulder issues this way as you would with rifle rounds fired in multiple actions.


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    Re: Sig 229

    Post by Otis2 on Fri Oct 24, 2014 10:16 pm

    Don't know how much sage here, but I'll give it a go. With carbide dies, lube is not required for the 357 SIG dies.  I've never used it, never felt the need, either.  I imagine you could use the 40 S&W die for initial sizing, but I don't see the benefit there, either.  The Redding 3 die set works well in this manner, the Lee factory sizing die is something that is not required, but won't hurt anything, if properly used.  There are plenty of die manufacturers out there making good dies for the round.  Hornady, RCBS, and Dillon, to name a few.  EGW (Evolution Gun Works) used to make an undersized reloading die that offered full length resizing, it was developed to address the Glock 40 bulge of days past.  I can't find them available any more.  

    Finding what worked took a bit longer than other calibers.  But the Montana Gold bullets are a definite must.  They make the process so much easier and the end product is so much more robust.  Hope this helped a little bit.
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    Re: Sig 229

    Post by Devereaux on Fri Oct 24, 2014 10:38 pm

    ?Do you reload on a single stage. I am interested in doing this on a Dillon 650 - mostly because it would allow some speed in producing ammo.

    My overall experience is that when using the 650 I will often use One Shot to speed the process. It seems to make the reloading move along so much more smoothly.

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    Re: Sig 229

    Post by Otis2 on Sat Oct 25, 2014 10:11 am

    No, an RCBS progressive.  Using the lube certainly won't hurt anything.

    As to the locking insert change on the P229, the P228 barrel and slide dimensions are a bit different in the areas that interface with the locking insert.  The frames are essentially the same in the other aspects involving slide to frame fit.  The P228 was originally designed for 9mm.  When the P229 was developed, it was built around the 40 S&W and SIG decided to keep the 9mm P229 in the P228 style frame.  The primary differences between the P229 9mm and 40 S&W frames were in the mag well, the 40 S&W being a little wider than the 9mm.  In an effort to standardize their inventory, the P229 in all three calibers started using the 40 S&W frame.  This opened up the mag well and allowed for a wider magazine, hence the birth of the P229-1 magazines in 9mm.  This designation identifies 9mm mags designed for the wider body.  The original 9mm mags will work in the wider frame, in fact, sleeves have been developed to eliminate the slop, but I have found them to not be required and don't use them.  The P229-1 magazines, however, will not fit in the narrower P228/P229 frame.

    A little more on caliber conversions, the P239 and P224 use the same barrel blanks for each caliber, drilled out for each specific caliber.  With the identical external dimensions, the barrels will fit the slides of the other calibers (with the exception of neither 40 S&W or 357 SIG will go down to 9mm due to the breech face width).  If you start with either of these handguns in 40 S&W or 357 SIG, you can easily convert them to any of the other calibers by swapping out the barrel with a SIG OEM barrel.  The P224 uses the same recoil spring across all three calibers, the P239 uses one spring for 9mm and a different one for 40 S&W and 357 SIG.  I have a P224 and P239, both originally chambered in 40 S&W, and they both run 9mm and 357 SIG very well. The sights used in the three calibers differ slightly. In the 9mm and 357 SIG, SIG typically installs #8 sights both front and rear. In 40 S&W and 45 ACP, they use a #6 front and #8 rear.
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    Re: Sig 229

    Post by Devereaux on Sat Oct 25, 2014 2:16 pm

    Sights! Someone who may know something about Sig sights.

    I have 4 Sigs. My 229 is old - no rail under the dust cover. One 226 is German, and the other is DAK. And I have a 227. I have old, wedge-type sights on 3 of them - I stole that from the DAK and put it on the 227. Today Sigs come with these weird overhang sights.  I dislike them. I usually take out the old rear and turn it around backwards and that works really well. I messed with the 227 sight until I dragged out the older DAK and found the old sight on it, so I swapped them.

    ?Do you know what those olde wedge-type sights are and where I can get them. Originally I believe they had a white line in the center (which now faces forward as I turned them around).

    'Nother question. I have 10-8 rear sights on my Shield. I really like it. It is 0.156 wide, and that's a little wider than you normally see, so you can acquire the front a little easier. ?Does Sig make a wider rear slot, or am I going to have to free-hand the file on them.

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    Re: Sig 229

    Post by Otis2 on Sat Oct 25, 2014 3:30 pm

    The sights I believe you are talking about are called von Stravenhagen and availble from Top Gun Supply and Numrich Gun Parts, they will occasionally show up on eBay.

    http://www.topgunsupply.com/sig-sauer-sights-parts/

    http://www.gunpartscorp.com/ad/1288820.htm#1288830


    Last edited by Otis2 on Sat Oct 25, 2014 3:48 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : added links)

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    Re: Sig 229

    Post by Otis2 on Sat Oct 25, 2014 3:34 pm

    Dawson Precision has been a good source for sights. They will make about anything you may desire. Contact Dave and let him know what you want and he will put it together for you.  I like the Warren/Sevigny sights.

    https://www.dawsonprecision.com/CategoryProductList.jsp?cat=SIGHT+SETS:Sig+Arms+Sight+Sets

    https://www.dawsonprecision.com/ProductDetail.jsp?LISTID=80001838-1388518384


    Last edited by Otis2 on Sat Oct 25, 2014 3:52 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : links added)
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    Re: Sig 229

    Post by Devereaux on Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:50 pm

    Yup! Those were the ones. I read a touch about the Sig sights, and find the numbers are related to how tall the sight is. I gather that the lower the number, the shorter the sight. Or perhaps more accurately, the lower the number the higher the POI. Or something like that.

    I note you stated that Sig usually puts #8 rears on their guns. ?Is that true across their classic line too (220, 226, 227, 229). ?Does Sig mark the sight somewhere, or do you just have to "know". ?Is there a height that you can measure to know what is what.

    On reloading, I know you don't "need" to lube nitrite die cases, but I have found that in using my Dillon I get an easiet time with working the lever if I have lubed the cases. I don't use a lot of lube; seems One Shot a quick spray and then shaking the cases in a box goes a long way. But it is DEFINITELY easier when you are sitting and doing 4-500 rounds in a session. I am personally not FOND of reloading. I consider it the price to pay to shoot a lot. I know some feel you can tailor a round to your weapon, and in my Dakota that is definitely true. But that's a prairie dog gun, and it has to hit a dog at 800 yds, so tailoring is in the cards. For pistols, I have not found that kind of tinkering making a whole lot of difference. I realize that some loads/manufacturers/bullet-powder combo's will shoot differently, but for what I shoot it doesn't make that much difference. I will have to try your Montana bullets and see how they work out. I still am working my way through my "practice" .357 Sig ammo - and saving cases. Got a bunch when a local police dept was qualifying on the range and they carry .357 Sig and were leaving their brass. I picked up a bunch.

    Funny story about that. The range officer that was working the cops through told me I could take what I wanted, but he warned me that I might not want it as there were a lot of misfired and poor ammo in the lot they were using for qual. As if the quality of the ammo was relavent to reloaded ammo. I am sure the brass is adequate, so I will simply reload what I want.

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    Re: Sig 229

    Post by Otis2 on Sun Oct 26, 2014 1:02 am

    For rear sights, the higher the number, the taller the sight. For front sights, the higher the number, the shorter the sight. This can be confusing to remember.

    The easiest way to think of it is, numbers up, groups up; numbers down, groups down. This is true for both front and rear sights.

    Each number change on the rear sight will affect POI 2" per 25 yds. Each number change on the front sight will affect POI 1" per 25 yds.

    There will be a pop quiz tomorrow.


    The sight number is embossed on each sight.  They tend to be quite small, I find with a magnifying glass they become easier to find.
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    Re: Sig 229

    Post by Devereaux on Sun Oct 26, 2014 4:22 pm

    Aha! Found them! And you're absolutley right - you need a magnifying glass to see them. And, indeed, the light has to hit them right, too. They ARE engraved, but very lightly. Interestingly the front #6 that was on the flat (parallel to the slide) had an underline under the 6, but the 226 was on the side of the front sight. So they aren't always in the same place. Although the rears were both in what was the front of the sight.

    My .40 226 had a #8 rear, while the German 226 in 9mm has a #7. The 226 & 227 have #6 front's. I also looked at the .22 conversion for my 229. It does NOT have any numbers on the sights. The rear is adjustable, so it doesn't really count, but the front is (obviously) fixed. And I can't find the number on it. Maybe later I will look at the 229 slide and see what it has.

    Thank you for all this information. It increases my knowledge of the Sig line of pistols a nice bit. I have come to Sigs late, being more of a 1911 guy for most of my life. I can detail strip the 1911 almost in my sleep. I am sort of getting there for the Sig frames (at least the classic lines - I don't have any 23x's). I have yet to take apart the slide of a Sig, although I must say I don't see much reason to do so. And I am daunted a bit by the roll pin system in the slide.

    One thing you can say about the 1911 is that you can take the whole thing apart with absolutely no tools. I don't know of any other pistol that can do that. The Sig can come down a ways, but you eventually end up needing roll pin punches and starters

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    Re: Sig 229

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