Five Guns I'll NEVER Own

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    Charlie Foxtrot
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    Five Guns I'll NEVER Own

    Post by Charlie Foxtrot on Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:11 pm

    First of all, these aren't my words. There are dang few guns that I wouldn't own: if it goes bang - I generally want at least one.  This nabob Empty Cases  with his list is either an idiot or is craftily driving eyeballs to his website. I'm going to bet on a crafty idiot: as no one can be solely that stupid. He disses the Double Tap and Chiappa Rhino. Meh, there are much worse. But he really unshines mentally when he categorically states he'd never own 1) a Shotgun (the mind boggles), 2) an AK-47 (never?), or 3) a Glock (for reals?).  Such chutzpah cannot go unremarked.  

    However, it is a fascinating mental exercise: What guns would you NEVER own?  

    For me:

    1. Derringers. I'm allergic to small capacity and shooting myself in the palm
    2. Cheap Saturday Night Specials. i.e: Jennings, High Point, etc. Life's too short to shoot pot metal guns
    3. PPK/S. Love the design, the history, the looks, but... It hates me. The slide, it BITES!  (Hmm - Maybe not)
      Recent vintage Kimber 1911s. Nothing like paying a huge amount for a no longer deserved reputation
    4. Any Microstamped or “Smart” gun
    5. Can't think of a fifth. Okay, I can: a .44 AutoMag. A friend, not known as having an excess of common sense despite a Mensa intellect, bought one. It was an abusive relationship. It was a big, gaudy, loud, poorly balanced, hard kicking, hand cannon, with the ergonomics of a Russian trash truck. The ammo was insanely expensive Norma, in limited supply, brass was manufactured from .308 casings, magazines were rare as hens teeth, and it was not particularly accurate. Worse, the damn thing was good for at least one horrendous jam each magazine.  

      We tried everything to tame the beast. There was no consistent pattern, so it felt like we were chasing 3 or 4 different problems. It seemed to like hotter loads, so he spec'd out handloads that scared me. I finally refused any other assistance, fearing he would end up with the bolt between his beady eyes.

      He spent a fortune on AutoMag gunsmiths, to no avail. Frustrated, he offered to sell it to me at a huge discount. I wouldn't touch it.  

      He moved to Colorado, where he keeps it in his nightstand as his self defense weapon. I'm sure he could beat a home invader to death with it.


    Your list?


    Last edited by Charlie Foxtrot on Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:57 pm; edited 7 times in total
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    Re: Five Guns I'll NEVER Own

    Post by Devereaux on Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:46 pm

    Interesting list. I own a derringer, but admittedly I won it at a SASS match. I own a PPK/S, and like it. It is the newer one, though, made by S&W. It has a "beaver tail" so I don't get the dredded "rail line". AND since my godson has his dad's PPK from way back, and I've fired it, and I got tracks from it, I fully understand your comment. But try one of the new ones - you just might change your mind.

    THEN I own a Kimber 1911 - in .17 HMR. With a .22 slide for it (I rather DON'T like the .22 adapter slide). I think it's a really neat 1911. And I own an Ultra CDP. I fully realize that a 1911 smaller than 4" has potential reliability issue, but this little guy is just kool. It has an S&A magwell, making the frame just that much bigger to shoot nicely. And I splurged and put ivory grips on it.

    For me, I generally don't buy what I consider 2nd tier guns. Not that there's really anything wrong with them - I just prefer to buy the original brand name stuff. And I have enough to not have to get any of them. I suggest that second tier (and 3rd tier, etc.) stuff is good for people that don't have the money to buy the old classics. Today a Colt, Sig, S&W, or even a Ruger, will set you back some. Not so with any number of the other guns. Just saw an add from Buds Gun Shop that they now had the Tisas 1911 in 9mm for $399. It seems a good gun. I am sure it shoots well. I just won't buy it. No dis, just not my cup of tea.

    I have a thing about AK's. It too is personal. I am sure they are good, reliable weapons for what they do, but there will never be one I bought in my house. You want to GIVE me one, I might change my mind - maybe.

    That said, there's guns I like and guns I don't like. But I wouldn't go so far as to use the "NEVER" word. I go with the adage: "Never say 'NEVER', never say 'ALWAYS'". Colt made junk too for a while.
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    Re: Five Guns I'll NEVER Own

    Post by Tennessee Jed on Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:56 pm

    Interesting question.  I guess there are some guns I'll never own simply because I don't have any need (e.g., 17 caliber anything, muzzleloading shotgun, etc.), but if based more on dislike, then here's my list:

    1.  S&W Sigma - Too crappy a trigger, and crappy triggers drive me out of my mind.

    2.  Taurus Revolver (any model) - I'm sure they're fine for other people, but the crappy trigger issue, and notion of internal parts breaking or failing sends me running.

    3.  Double action semi-auto (any model) - I've never fired any double action semi-auto with anything other than a crappy double action trigger.

    4.  1911 GI Model - Any maker.  Dang, I so badly want to love one.  However, like CF and the PPK/S, I can never find one that doesn't consistently bite my hand.

    --- and some of you might want to sit down before reading the next one ---

    5.  AR-15 - Like the 1911 GI model, I so badly want to love this model.  But I can't get past the direct impingement design, the idea of spending hours scrubbing carbon off of internal parts, and spending tons of cash on what will always remain a high-velocity, 8-10 pound, 22 caliber rifle.  

    I need to start a club...gun owners who don't want an AR-15.


    Last edited by Tennessee Jed on Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:58 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : typo)
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    Re: Five Guns I'll NEVER Own

    Post by Tennessee Jed on Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:04 pm

    For what it's worth, I did not say AR-15 in response to Dev's comment about the AK. I like AK's but certainly don't take offense to someone not liking AK's. I fully respect why Dev doesn't like AK's.
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    Re: Five Guns I'll NEVER Own

    Post by Devereaux on Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:16 pm

    Tennessee Jed wrote:Interesting question.  I guess there are some guns I'll never own simply because I don't have any need (e.g., 17 caliber anything, muzzleloading shotgun, etc.), but if based more on dislike, then here's my list:

    1.  S&W Sigma - Too crappy a trigger, and crappy triggers drive me out of my mind.

    2.  Taurus Revolver (any model) - I'm sure they're fine for other people, but the crappy trigger issue, and notion of internal parts breaking or failing sends me running.

    3.  Double action semi-auto (any model) - I've never fired any double action semi-auto with anything other than a crappy double action trigger.

    4.  1911 GI Model - Any maker.  Dang, I so badly want to love one.  However, like CF and the PPK/S, I can never find one that doesn't consistently bite my hand.

    --- and some of you might want to sit down before reading the next one ---

    5.  AR-15 - Like the 1911 GI model, I so badly want to love this model.  But I can't get past the direct impingement design, the idea of spending hours scrubbing carbon off of internal parts, and spending tons of cash on what will always remain a high-velocity, 8-10 pound, 22 caliber rifle.  

    I need to start a club...gun owners who don't want an AR-15.

    Both Sig and Ruger have piston AR's. I have a Sig piston upper on one of the lowers I built. I have seen the Rugers and they seem well built. Something else to think about.
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    Re: Five Guns I'll NEVER Own

    Post by Charlie Foxtrot on Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:04 pm

    Dev: Didn't know the S&W PPK/S had added a beavertail - going to have to look into that. Never say never...  

    TJ: You're missing out on one of the great joys of life: playing AR-15 Barbies.  The direct impingement carbon build-up is largely oversold (largely by the guys building those carbon removal tools.) I've got an old glass and metal peanut-butter jar with some equally ancient Hoppes #9. The bolt carrier group (BCG) goes into the jar and I go do a couple of Honey-Dos. After about 2-3 hours in that stew, the BCG wipes clean. No fuss, no muss. Same for the inside of the receiver.  

    And I'm with Dev: buy quality. Firearms, good ones, can easily be multi-generational.  Over that time horizon, saving a few bucks doesn't make a lot of sense.  As the Clan's armorer, I have several of the ancestor's firearms that are as functional today as they were when new.
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    Re: Five Guns I'll NEVER Own

    Post by Devereaux on Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:38 pm

    CF - ?do you take your BCG apart before soaking, or just drop the whole kit 'n kaboodle in the jar. ?If you don't disassemble, why not. It is stupid easy to take an AR BCG apart.
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    Re: Five Guns I'll NEVER Own

    Post by Tennessee Jed on Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:47 pm

    Hmmm...well, maybe... if someone comes out with a piston driven AR in 458 Socom. Or something bigger.



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    Re: Five Guns I'll NEVER Own

    Post by Charlie Foxtrot on Sun Mar 16, 2014 4:20 pm

    Devereaux wrote:CF - ?do you take your BCG apart before soaking, or just drop the whole kit 'n kaboodle in the jar. ?If you don't disassemble, why not. It is stupid easy to take an AR BCG apart.

    My process is to drop the entire BCG into the Hoppes. After soaking, it comes apart like a dream. Everything gets a good cleaning, inspection, a very light oiling, the gas rings get a small drop, and then everything is carefully reassembled. The four contact points are given a drop or two, and everything is slipped back into the cleaned upper.

    Gotta say, taking apart a friend's AR-15 bolt decades ago led to my fascination with the engineering of firearms. An amazingly elegant design.

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    Re: Five Guns I'll NEVER Own

    Post by sthwestvictoria on Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:27 pm

    Will never buy revolving rifles.
    Will never buy rifles in calibres dreamt up by marketing teams - WSSSSSSM anything, RUUUUM etc.
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    Re: Five Guns I'll NEVER Own

    Post by Devereaux on Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:54 am

    sthwestvictoria wrote:Will never buy revolving rifles.
    Will never buy rifles in calibres dreamt up by marketing teams - WSSSSSSM anything, RUUUUM etc.

    I agree with your concept of no made-up calibres. I have little use for all the short magnums. I, too, believe they were created to simply sell "new" rifles. But go out to Idaho and go to a local general store, and I bet you won't find all those fancy calibres, but you WLL find the old classics.

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    Re: Five Guns I'll NEVER Own

    Post by sthwestvictoria on Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:58 am

    sthwestvictoria wrote:Will never buy revolving rifles.

    Now this an cack-handed overload by someone not following instructions but look how thin the chamber walls are on a Judge rifle:
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    Re: Five Guns I'll NEVER Own

    Post by Tennessee Jed on Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:19 pm

    Very interesting. I wondered about the not buying revolver rifles point, but now I get it.

    I guess there's also an issue about the blast as well.
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    Re: Five Guns I'll NEVER Own

    Post by Cornmastah on Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:56 pm

    Interesting lists... Mine includes things I may have purchased before, but were sold after I learned my lesson.

    1. Tec9 (I had one once--bought it, tried to shoot it and then sold it. I made a few hundred off of it, but man, it was pure junk. I thought it would be a fun collector gun from the ban era, but I hated everything about it).
    2. Judge (I also had one of these and have talked many a friend out of making the same mistake as me. Mine fell apart, and generally speaking was so purposeless that it made no sense to owning one. I warranty fixed it and then immediately sold it afterwards).
    3. Tactical pump shotgun (I have no use for a shotgun with a shorter barrel. If I can shoot clays with a regular barreled shotgun, I can shoot bad guys in my home also. The inverse does not apply. Tactical shotguns don't do as well with clays).
    4. Mossberg tactical lever action rifle (it is an abomination that defiles all things lever)
    5. Pistol grip shotguns with no stock. (Shot one once, don't need to ever do that again).
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    Re: Five Guns I'll NEVER Own

    Post by Charlie Foxtrot on Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:59 am

    In violent agreement with all your choices - except the Tactical Pump Shotgun.

    Let me explain my situation and reasoning: I shoot a Chinchester '97 pump shotgun in SASS. About once a month I get to practice my pump shotgun monkey memory. The Mossberg 590s shorter 20" barrel is better suited than my skeet gun's 28" for moving around the house. The TSG has a weapon light permanently mounted. It carries 9 rounds instead of the skeeter's 3. The TSG can handle any load between 2 1/2" puffballs to 3" slugs. Most importantly, the Mossy has a very ergonomic tang mounted safety.

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    Re: Five Guns I'll NEVER Own

    Post by Cornmastah on Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:09 pm

    Charlie Foxtrot wrote:In violent agreement with all your choices - except the Tactical Pump Shotgun.

    Let me explain my situation and reasoning: I shoot a Chinchester '97 pump shotgun in SASS. About once a month I get to practice my pump shotgun monkey memory. The Mossberg 590s shorter 20" barrel is better suited than my skeet gun's 28" for moving around the house. The TSG has a weapon light permanently mounted. It carries 9 rounds instead of the skeeter's 3. The TSG can handle any load between 2 1/2" puffballs to 3" slugs. Most importantly, the Mossy has a very ergonomic tang mounted safety.


    I agree that the shorter barrel is a little nicer to move around with in tight places. I just found that I never practiced or used my rem 870 tactical with the shorter barrel--but used my 28" rem quite often. It just sat around as a "just in case" gun. I guess I just didn't feel comfortable keeping the one I never practiced with by the bed, while the one I used all the time in the safe. In my own home layout, I would only need to go around one corner in order to get to all 4 of my kids--so I felt like for me, the tactical shotgun was just a novelty item.

    Out of curiosity, how often do you take out the 590 and put some rounds through it?

    As a side note... I really need to join the local SASS club.
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    Re: Five Guns I'll NEVER Own

    Post by Charlie Foxtrot on Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:51 pm

    Cornmastah wrote:Out of curiosity, how often do you take out the 590 and put some rounds through it?

    As a side note...  I really need to join the local SASS club.

    Yes, yes you do!  Wink It's the most fun you can have with your spurs on.  Smile

    My SASS club would no-host a round of Cowboy Trap for helping set up the match steel. Cowboy Trap is exactly the same as regular Trap, except you use the Side By Sides or Winchesters 1897 pumps used in SASS competitions. And you're shooting with Cow Folk, so the bovine byproduct is flung non-stop. As my Mossy 590 is very similar to the Win '97s, I've used it several times. I usually end the session by blasting a full load-out just as fast as I can trombone the slide. Smile  Cathartic. And it keeps the Mossy limber.

    BTW: even with 18.5" of a cylinder gauge tube, the birds break really well. My Trap game is very rusty, yet I can usually break 19-20 birds a round, 21-23 with my Benelli.

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    Re: Five Guns I'll NEVER Own

    Post by sthwestvictoria on Fri Apr 11, 2014 11:11 am

    sthwestvictoria wrote:Will never buy revolving rifles.
    An interesting case of another reason to avoid revloving carbines - and particularly the low velocity Winchester Z subsonic loads:
    http://www.australianhunting.net/index.php?topic=155858.0

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    Re: Five Guns I'll NEVER Own

    Post by NotThe10thMan on Sat Dec 20, 2014 3:22 pm

    I've surprised myself in so many ways with guns, I don't discount owning anything. My last two guns purchased are an...EIG...I think...Italian S&W 36 clone and a broken Thompson Contender with a 14" .22 LR barrel that won't cock. I got them both for $200. I'm pretty sure I can get a little ahead with those if I trade or sell them.

    I can say I freaking hate any handgun that chambers .410, with one exception-If I ever move back to snake country I'll probly be dual wielding a couple of them things like Yosemite Sam every time I step out of the yard. (Not a snake lover)

    I hate the Tec-9, Mac-10, etc and others of their ilk. Pretty self explanatory.

    One of the very worst guns I ever owned was a Colt Double Eagle in .40 S&W. Terrible, terrible unreliable, unrefined, inaccurate, poor handling pistol. Never again.

    To attack an entire genre, I think the big magnum auto pistols, such as Desert Eagles, LAR 45 Win Mag, Wildeys, etc. are really just play toys. I almost snicker when I meet people who have bought those for "bear protection" There is just flat out a time and a place to run a revolver. Every spring and summer at the range I see a dozen of those things fail.

    The new generation of bullpup shotguns, automatic, tacti-kool shotguns...just don't do much for me. In my limited experience with the bullpup designs, the Saiga, etc. they've always been tempermental, quirky, fragile, over complicated, off balance, etc. To be totally frank, I don't think there's been much new under the sun in the way of shotgun development since the sixties. The more I look at the new designs, the more impressed I am with the old boring ones.

    I also doubt I'll own a Colt Python or Anaconda. They're well made, accurate, and nice, but for the current prices, they have absolutely nothing to recommend themselves over a Smith & Wesson or a Ruger.

    I'm not prone to saying "never" but those all are pretty unlikely choices. It's a crazy, unpredictable world. By the end of the week, I might be feeling blessed if I have a zip gun, but life as I know it does tend to rule out those selections.

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    Re: Five Guns I'll NEVER Own

    Post by Cornmastah on Mon Dec 22, 2014 1:20 pm

    NotThe10thMan wrote:...I think the big magnum auto pistols, such as Desert Eagles, LAR 45 Win Mag, Wildeys, etc. are really just play toys... Every spring and summer at the range I see a dozen of those things fail.

    I think Dev has a Desert Eagle in .44 mag that he enjoys shooting. I have one in .50ae, but I admit that it is more of a novelty gun than practical. I know some people put a red dot on top and hog hunt with them, but for me, I just like to take it out once in a while and blast away. I have thought about getting a .44 mag barrel for it and shooting it a bit more--but I really enjoy the revolvers in the magnum cartridges.

    NotThe10thMan wrote:The new generation of bullpup shotguns, automatic, tacti-kool shotguns...just don't do much for me.  In my limited experience with the bullpup designs, the Saiga, etc. they've always been tempermental, quirky, fragile, over complicated, off balance, etc.

    I also dislike bullpup shotgun designs. However, I do enjoy shooting my Saiga 12 with the 24" barrel and adjustable choke. I have heavily modified that shotgun so it shoots great, is very reliable, and can bust clays just fine. I actually prefer using this shotgun over all my others. My 19" barreled Saiga, however, just sits in the safe--waiting for a SHTF scenario.

    NotThe10thMan wrote:I also doubt I'll own a Colt Python or Anaconda.  They're well made, accurate, and nice, but for the current prices, they have absolutely nothing to recommend themselves over a Smith & Wesson or a Ruger.

    Someday... someday... I will own a Colt Python & Anaconda...
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    Re: Five Guns I'll NEVER Own

    Post by Devereaux on Mon Dec 22, 2014 4:35 pm

    I have a Dessert Eagle in .44 Mag. It seems to function fine. My biggest point is that it seems to make a .44 mag cartridge easy to shoot. Some of it is weight, and some the auto recoil. Any pistol that has an AR-type bolt for the bigger cartridges can't be all bad. But there can always be exceptions. ACM here has a Sig 1911 that he loves, and I wouldn't buy one because it has ramp feed issues. Never say never.

    I have a neat shoulder holster (actually it hangs left front, outside your jacket) that carries it and it is easy to do that with.

    My Chinchester (as CF would call it) 1897 has spin-in chokes. I have a skeet and a full. The latter allows me to shoot the occasional cowboy trap meet without issues. About the biggest problem with this type of shotgun is that your sight radius is much shorter, and that makes hitting the bird harder.
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    Re: Five Guns I'll NEVER Own

    Post by Devereaux on Mon Dec 22, 2014 4:45 pm

    I rather like SWV's revolving rifle canard. I wouldn't mind having a REAL old Colt revolving rifle, but have little use for the modern reproductions. And I have no use for the Judge at all - in an form. I consider that a BS weapon.
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    Re: Five Guns I'll NEVER Own

    Post by Tennessee Jed on Tue Dec 23, 2014 5:30 pm

    NotThe10thMan wrote:I also doubt I'll own a Colt Python or Anaconda.  They're well made, accurate, and nice, but for the current prices, they have absolutely nothing to recommend themselves over a Smith & Wesson or a Ruger.


    Someday, I will find a Colt Python in stainless with a 6 inch barrel that has some cosmetic blemishes that result in a not-stupid price and will make the gun a shooter.

    And when I do, it will be mine. Oh yes, it will be mine.
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    Re: Five Guns I'll NEVER Own

    Post by Devereaux on Tue Dec 23, 2014 6:20 pm

    Tennessee Jed wrote:
    NotThe10thMan wrote:I also doubt I'll own a Colt Python or Anaconda.  They're well made, accurate, and nice, but for the current prices, they have absolutely nothing to recommend themselves over a Smith & Wesson or a Ruger.


    Someday, I will find a Colt Python in stainless with a 6 inch barrel that has some cosmetic blemishes that result in a not-stupid price and will make the gun a shooter.

    And when I do, it will be mine.  Oh yes, it will be mine.

    Off dreaming again, are we, TJ. There ain't NEVER going to be a "good" price for older Colts. I have a second gen nickel SAA 4-5/8" bbl in .45 Colt. ?Seen what that sucker is getting these days. I put real ivory grips on it, so it's even more expensive. And I bought that in 1970, when I got back from Nam, for the then outrageous price of -- $250.
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    Re: Five Guns I'll NEVER Own

    Post by Tennessee Jed on Tue Dec 23, 2014 6:40 pm

    Devereaux wrote:
    Off dreaming again, are we, TJ. There ain't NEVER going to be a "good" price for older Colts. I have a second gen nickel SAA 4-5/8" bbl in .45 Colt. ?Seen what that sucker is getting these days. I put real ivory grips on it, so it's even more expensive. And I bought that in 1970, when I got back from Nam, for the then outrageous price of -- $250.

    Of course. And while I'm at it, the first time I take that cosmetically blemished Python to the range, the then-current Miss December is going to sidle up next to me, comment on what a he-man I am for having such a classic, and ask that I show her how to shoot it.

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