SIG P220 10mm GT20

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    Otis2
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    SIG P220 10mm GT20

    Post by Otis2 on Mon May 18, 2015 11:17 am

    Got the call from my FFL Saturday, the P220 10mm I had ordered a few months ago arrived. Packed up the Dan Wesson Pointman 10mm, some mags and a bunch of ammo, including some handloads, Remington and Underwood rounds.

    Looking it over at the store prior to starting the 4473, I must say it is an impressive handgun! It is quite heavy, but has a very nice balance to it. Surely will handle the full power loads I have packed for the range well. The slide rails look to be well lubricated, and the fire control group, as well. No need to lube prior to heading to the range.

    Since the gun took a bit longer than was quoted, I understand there was a delay in getting the custom grips fabricated, an extra magazine was included for a total of three Mecgar mags. Dury's, the San Antonio gun shop that handled the sale for Gresham and SIG, also had included the SIG mag and bag rebate application with a receipt attached. All I had to do was fill in my personal info along with some details of the gun and drop in the mail. Five mags will be a good starting point for this gun, but I may pick up some more.

    When I got to the range, I loaded up the three mags to full capacity with my reloads, a moderate load with cast lead bullets. I inserted the first mag, it took a firm press to install, but certainly not something I would consider a design flaw, as has been stated previously. Looking at the pictures of the mags that caused all the ruckus, my mags have no detents for the mag release either. A firm tap and the mag was securely in place, no concerns there at all. This being my first SAO P-series, it was very nice to see that ambi thumb safeties are included. If I have a manual safety on a gun, I want it to be accessible from both sides.

    The front sight is a green fiber optic and the rear is an adjustable target sight. The green fiber really pops out, good for target acquisition, now to see how quick it can be acquired after a 10mm recoil.

    I lit off the first round, WOW! The recoil was very light, much less than I anticipated! And accurate, much more than I am capable of. Ran the remaining rounds I had loaded up and thought is was time to try some hot stuff. The Underwoods I brought today are the 165 gr TMJ round, rated by Underwood at 1400 fps. No slouch of a round, I had better hold on to these when they go off. But again, the recoil on these were quite nice, very manageable. Sight reacquisition was very quick, even with the hot Underwoods. Ran some more Underwoods and brought out the Remingtons, again, another pleasant experience.

    The trigger was really a lot nicer than I had anticipated. Very nice feel to it, minimal take up, typical crisp SIG break, almost no over travel and short reset. Overall, an excellent trigger, SIG did good with this, also!

    When I got a chance, the gun was taken down and the frame detail stripped. I was very surprised to see a GGI P-SPIT trigger installed! That would explain the lack of over travel. I'm not sure if this is standard for all the P220 10mm's, a SIG SAO or if this is a custom touch specified by Gresham, but either way, a very nice touch.

    The fit and finish of the gun was fantastic. I see no machining marks anywhere, no distractions from a fine handgun. There were a few spots on the fire control group that have clearly been polished before I received the gun. I imagine these touches also contributed to the fine trigger found on this gun.

    This is a fantastic gun, I am very happy I paid the money and waited for the arrival, a winner in my book! Good job, kudos to all involved and a special thanks to Tom Gresham for putting this together and to Mr. Gray for his contributions helping this come to fruition!  

    GT20 trigger

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/v6px8pj41h9xb0l/P-SPIT%20trigger.jpg?dl=0

    A couple unusual items, something you just don’t see every day, a SIG barrel marked 10mm and a captive P-series recoil spring:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/tclf3s14qcmmgi0/Barrel%20and%20recoil%20spring%20assy.jpg?dl=0

    The GT20 with some dreaded black bullets.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/ys9uhuybw6jhji6/P220%2010mm.jpg?dl=0

    My 10mm handguns.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/qxppw1kj2gsbs4v/10mm%20handguns.jpg?dl=0
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    Tennessee Jed
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    Re: SIG P220 10mm GT20

    Post by Tennessee Jed on Tue May 19, 2015 1:52 pm

    Very nice Otis! I'm glad to see Sig release this. Sounds like a great pistol. The more 10mm handguns out there, the merrier, and the more likely we'll continue to see cartridge development for the caliber.

    I only have one 10mm, a Glock 20, but I love it to death. It has in the past been a carry gun for me in the cooler months, when heavier clothing allows more room for concealment. It is one of my most accurate handguns, and I think it has something to do with the cartridge.

    What I don't get about the 10mm is the general conception that it's "too much" for defensive duty. Personally, I think that line of thought goes to the general wussification of the U.S. public, but that's a separate issue. If I ever need to fire a gun to protect my hide, I'm pretty sure that I will never think anything short of a howitzer is too much.

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    Re: SIG P220 10mm GT20

    Post by Cornmastah on Tue May 19, 2015 7:09 pm

    Otis, those are some great looking guns. Gotta love the 10mm. I only have two of the above 10mm guns, the g20 and the g29, but love them. I've been wanting to get the 10mm in a Colt Delta Elite 1911 for a while, but am still waiting on some other things first.
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    Re: SIG P220 10mm GT20

    Post by Devereaux on Tue May 19, 2015 9:22 pm

    That is one impressive Sig. I really like it. I may even have to try to get one. So info on where you ordered it, etc, would be nice.

    The grips look different from what Sig usually has. I am personally very much a fan of the E2's. Those look a little like them but are clearly not E2's. ?Can you get E2's. ?Are those close to E2's.

    10mm has historically had a reputation for overpenetrating, much like the .44 Mag. ?Has that changed. I would guess any cartridge that you can consider shooting a bear with has to have serious penetration, and on the street that can be a problem. It is one reason, eg., that police snipers have gone from the .308 to the 5.56. I would love to hear more discussion on the pro's and con's of 10mm.

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    Re: SIG P220 10mm GT20

    Post by Otis2 on Wed May 20, 2015 12:49 am

    Thank you everyone.  It is a great shooting gun.  I'm very fortunate to have a nice collection of 10mm handguns.  My thought is still the same, if forced to choose just one, the Glock 20 would be my choice for numerous reasons.  

    The grips are a custom G-10 grip Hogue made for this handgun specifically.  Personally, I don't care for the E2 grips one bit.  I have found that with use, they seem to become loose on the firearm and I can sense a slight rotation of the firearm when shooting.  Might be my imagination, but I prefer the grips that are screwed onto the firearm.  The Hogue Piranaha model is tops for me, a texture that is just right in my hand, not too course, not too slick.  The Chain Link is a bit more aggressive.

    The GT20 is a limited production handgun.  SIG made the gun specifically for Tom Gresham in celebration of his 20th year on the air with Gun Talk.  The original plan was to make 1000 of them and the pre-order period was limited to a one month period.  The orders fell far short, only 300 of the guns were made.  Dury's Guns in San Antonio handled the sales, I would suggest you contact them soon if you are interested in purchasing one. I heard that they got a few extras in, but unsure how many.  

    They can be reached here:

    (210) 533-5431 or (210) 533-5468 | Fax (210) 533-2537 | 819 Hot Wells - San Antonio, TX 78223

    https://www.durysguns.com/
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    Re: SIG P220 10mm GT20

    Post by Tennessee Jed on Wed May 20, 2015 11:14 am

    Devereaux wrote:
    10mm has historically had a reputation for overpenetrating, much like the .44 Mag. ?Has that changed. I would guess any cartridge that you can consider shooting a bear with has to have serious penetration, and on the street that can be a problem. It is one reason, eg., that police snipers have gone from the .308 to the 5.56. I would love to hear more discussion on the pro's and con's of 10mm.

    I think cartridge development for the 10mm really hit its stride after the FBI moved on to a different caliber. Double Tap Ammo, I understand, was created by a handloader who experimented heavily with getting the 10mm velocity to maximum levels in a Glock 20, and then chose to start selling his ammo commercially.

    I've read stories about initial problems with the initial 10mm offerings, in a defensive capacity. The original offerings were a 200 grain fmj at 1200 fps (and who would be surprised that THIS would overpenetrate?) and a Norma 170 grain jhp at 1300 fps. I understand the 170 grain jhp didn't do so well in shootings, either. It worked, but I understand it didn't have the zombie-flattening effect desired. I read an account of a cop who had to shoot a bad guy with that round, and the coroner's report showed the hollowpoints didn't open up much.

    But that was in the early 80's. After we entered the new millennium, we started seeing bullets like the Speer Gold Dot and Remington Golden Saber being pushed at very high velocities. My favorite is a round made by both Double Tap and Underwood, a 165 grain Gold Dot at around 1400 - 1450 fps. Gel tests I've seen say the Underwood round penetrates 12.1 inches in gel after 4 layers of denim, expanding to 0.853 inches.

    I've not been able to find any real world shootings using these new hyper velocity rounds in 10mm, so I think no one knows for certain how well they would really work. And I much prefer real life evidence over lab results. However, I think it's a safe bet that these are going to be very effective in a defensive capacity.

    That level of performance is, I believe, comparable to a 45 acp +p. The difference with the 10mm, though, is that it holds more, the trajectory is a lot flatter, and I'm not concerned about the round beating up a Glock 20 the way I would be concerned about a 45 acp +p tearing up a 1911.

    Unless it wasn't already obvious, I'm a big fan of the caliber. I view it more as a defensive gun than a protection in the woods gun.
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    Re: SIG P220 10mm GT20

    Post by Devereaux on Wed May 20, 2015 4:04 pm

    TJ - your comment about 1911's & 10mm seem to have lots of legs. Indeed, I have heard that unless it is a seriously strengthened 1911, it will be beaten to death very quickly by the cartridge. So I have heard no less than NS2 say that 10mm even in the Colt Delta isn't a prescription for long life.

    That said, you speak of a 165 gr load doing 1400-1450. My old ISPC guns (2 1911's, though rather highly modified) shot .38 Super. They both shot a 130 gr bullet (plated) at about 1440 +/- (depending on temperatures). Those are at least .357 Mag ballistics, and although the bullet weight is a bit heavier, close to the 10mm load you speak of. ?So perhaps the 10mm isn't quite the monster it is made out to be.
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    Re: SIG P220 10mm GT20

    Post by Devereaux on Wed May 20, 2015 4:17 pm

    Just called the San Antonio store and got my name on a waiting list. I am about 20th, and they are expecting about 25 to come in some time by the end of this (or next - can't remember which) week. The price appears to be $1400. Comes with 3 mags.

    ?That about what you got, Otis, or has the price gone up. I DO hope I get a shot at one.
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    Re: SIG P220 10mm GT20

    Post by Devereaux on Wed May 20, 2015 4:21 pm

    Back to the 10mm 1911.

    My ISPC gun has a fully supported barrel and a ramp. And the bottom is solid, so no little legs to lock up the barrel on the slide stop pin, which shear off with heavy use (like shooting major in an IPSC event). The hammer is steel but the firing pin is titanium, as the titanium hammers would also break relatively easily with heavy use. The FP, OTOH, gave quicker lock times (not a factor in my generally slow shooting).

    I would expect that any 1911 in 10mm would have similar mods-for-life.
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    Re: SIG P220 10mm GT20

    Post by Tennessee Jed on Wed May 20, 2015 6:48 pm

    Devereaux wrote:That said, you speak of a 165 gr load doing 1400-1450. My old ISPC guns (2 1911's, though rather highly modified) shot .38 Super. They both shot a 130 gr bullet (plated) at about 1440 +/- (depending on temperatures). Those are at least .357 Mag ballistics, and although the bullet weight is a bit heavier, close to the 10mm load you speak of. ?So perhaps the 10mm isn't quite the monster it is made out to be.

    Good point. I do think people go a little over the top when it comes to the 10mm. All this talk about a 10mm being a bear gun, I think, adds a lot of hype and assumption.

    I look at it more as a 357 mag auto, or just a smidge better. That 165/1400 load is a smidge better ballistically than the standard 357 mag 158 jhp at 1300 fps out of a revolver (1400-1500 in the original 1930's loading). I think that 38 Super load you mentioned is more comparable to the 357 mag 125 jhp at 1400 fps.

    Some people say that if one really likes the 357 mag (like me), then one should look at the 357 Sig. I'll admit the 357 Sig is comparable to the 125 grain 357 mag round, but the ability to go into those heavier bullets at higher velocities is where the 10mm leaves it in the dust.

    And if I'm not mistaken, one can still go a little crazy and find those 200 grain bullets at 1100 - 1200 fps.


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    Re: SIG P220 10mm GT20

    Post by Devereaux on Wed May 20, 2015 8:40 pm

    For me the .357 Sig is simply a defensive load. It comes in an auto that isn't terribly large, and hits like a freight train in the 125 load. I think it's the bottleneck. I think ALL the bottleneck rounds are hotrods. Certainly the rifle are, and in the handguns you get 7.65x21, .357 Sig and I think there's a .25 round that is like that. The beauty of a .357 Sig is that you have basically a 9mm sized weapon that shoots like a .357 Mag.

    Seems the 10mm kind of sits in the middle. It's tougher than a .357 Mag but not a .44 Mag. Kind of like the old .41 Mags, of which I only know anecdotal info. Never fired one, never handled one, never looked up the ballistics.
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    Re: SIG P220 10mm GT20

    Post by Tennessee Jed on Wed May 20, 2015 9:45 pm

    I agree. It is reminiscent of the 41 mag. Which is another caliber I'd REALLY like to get to know someday.

    I'm sure you already know this, but just in case, the Winchester Silver Tip for the 41 mag is ballistically identical to the Silver Tip for the 10mm.

    Turns out, the 41 mag Silver Tip is a little downloaded for the caliber, and the 10mm Silver Tip is pretty hot for that caliber.

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    Re: SIG P220 10mm GT20

    Post by Otis2 on Wed May 20, 2015 11:04 pm

    Devereaux wrote:Just called the San Antonio store and got my name on a waiting list. I am about 20th, and they are expecting about 25 to come in some time by the end of this (or next - can't remember which) week. The price appears to be $1400. Comes with 3 mags.

    ?That about what you got, Otis, or has the price gone up. I DO hope I get a shot at one.

    That's it. If you can get it this month, SIG is running their bag and mag special Two free mags and a range bag with every P-series purchased in the month of May. Fingers crossed.
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    Re: SIG P220 10mm GT20

    Post by Devereaux on Thu May 21, 2015 2:54 am

    Ack! I think May is just about shot. No, wait! I have jury duty for a week after Memorial Day. That's still May.

    So maybe. Let's hope.
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    Re: SIG P220 10mm GT20

    Post by Devereaux on Sun May 24, 2015 5:17 pm

    I keep looking at that picture of your, Otis. It is gorgeous. I really hope I can get one. I have not had much of a hankering for anything for some time (other than a Steve Chen 1911, which I have NO HOPE of ever having), but this looks really nice.

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    Re: SIG P220 10mm GT20

    Post by Otis2 on Mon May 25, 2015 11:04 am

    I'm pulling for you, Dev. It is a fine shooting gun, the trigger is incredible. A Chen 1911 would be a prize, that is for certain. At this point, my top end 1911's will most likely remain at the Dan Wesson level. I will resist any opportunities to shoot a high end 1911 since I know my weaknesses. Once that Pandora's Box opens, I shudder at the possible consequences.
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    Re: SIG P220 10mm GT20

    Post by Devereaux on Mon May 25, 2015 11:47 am

    One thing about thinking about a Chen is that it is clearly not in the cards, so it's kind of safe. I had the loan of a Nighthawk for about a year, and loved it. I have contemplated getting one for myself ever since, but never "pulled the trigger". The new 9mm looks rather nice.

    But you GT20 is just different. It is a departure for Sig to make a 10mm. I like the finish. I like the appearance of the grips. Even though you don't like the E2's, I do. Mine have not shown any tendency to loosen, but I don't take them off much. That may be a factor. Still, except for the 227, all came with the old grips too.

    ?So is the trigger so good I won't want to put an SRT in.

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    Re: SIG P220 10mm GT20

    Post by Otis2 on Mon May 25, 2015 2:00 pm

    The GT20 is a SIG SAO manual of arms. With the GGI P-SPIT (or SIG version of it) trigger, over travel is limited so the reset is very short on this model as shipped. I am not yet intimately familiar with the SAO system on a SIG classic P-series. The armorers course only covered DA/SA with some discussion of DAO and DAK. Nothing whatsoever on the SAO and this is my first SAO. I seriously doubt the SRT would function properly here, and even if it did, no benefit would be derived. I would rate the trigger as being very similar to a nice 1911.

    Speaking of 9mm 1911's, my Dan Wesson Guardian in 9mm is my very favorite sidearm to shoot. Incredibly accurate and very modest recoil. SIG has just announced their 1911 Ultra in 9mm. I'm contemplating one of these. I've become a huge fan of the SIG 1911's. For a sub-$1,000 production 1911, they are incredibly nice, they represent an excellent value in the 1911 market today. Yes, the 1911 purists have a lot to bash on the SIG 1911's as they have several deviations from the original design as accepted by the US Govt. But the external extractor was part of JMB's original design for the 1911. Obviously, I am not a 1911 purist.
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    Re: SIG P220 10mm GT20

    Post by Devereaux on Mon May 25, 2015 6:45 pm

    I only know the DAK and the DA/SA. While I have heard your arguments for the DAK, I still like the DA/SA. I also like the SRT, but apparently that isn't necessary for the GT20. I am now really interested and strongly hope to get one. If the trigger is nearly as nice as you describe, it should be great.

    I am not familiar with the GGI P-SPIT. Please expound some more on that. I have not heard of it previously.

    I cannot really consider myself a "purist" vis a vis the 1911. I do believe the external extractor is a significant improvement over the original 1911 extractor. Still, I also believe that the amount of noise that is generated over the original extractor is way overstating the problem. Yes, there can be issues, but not often. You just have to know what they look like and how to address them.

    My problem with the Sig 1911 is that I have been given on good authority that the engineer who designed it changed the ramp angle. This has led to some feeding issues from time to time (or perhaps round to round). With there being SO many good 1911's out there (eg. Springfield RO - now in 9 too) it seems one might avoid possible problems by not getting too much into Sigs.

    Still ACM here has had one and likes it and says that at least his has been a great performer. But then, that's the way with design issues; they don't necessarily get every example, or even a large number of them. Look at all the Gen 4 issues with the Glocks. Then there were all the issues with .40 Glocks, which some claimed to be related to a gun that was designed for 9 shooting a .40 - of significant more power. Not being a Glocker, I wouldn't know all these things.

    But I would like to hear about that trigger.

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    Re: SIG P220 10mm GT20

    Post by Otis2 on Mon May 25, 2015 10:44 pm

    Rather than try to explain the P-SPIT trigger, I'll give you a link:

    http://grayguns.com/products/p-series-sig-sauer-precision-intermediate-trigger/#foxyshop_gallery[1216]/1/

    I don't think the GT20 has a GGI version but rather a SIG copy of the product. Bruce machines his from bar stock, the trigger in the GT20 appears to my eye to be a MIM product. But regardless, it has a positive effect on the overall impression of the trigger.

    I own a few SIG 1911's and have had not one issue with any of them. In 45 ACP, I have the full size Scorpion and Nightmare, and in 357 SIG, the full size Nightmare. I also have 1911's in 45 ACP by Colt, Springfield Armory and Dan Wesson, along with 10mm's by Colt and Dan Wesson and a 9mm by Dan Wesson. The 1911, in any iteration, can be a joy to shoot, hoping to add the 9mm SIG soon.

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    Re: SIG P220 10mm GT20

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